Gulbahar Altas / The Independent 27.06.2022
In his own words, he joined the PKK instead of studying the law faculty he won in Turkey in 1998; Serhed Kerim, a former PKK commander who said, “Maybe I joined the PKK, thinking that under the conditions of the time, our rights would be taken sooner by armed struggle,” and who decided to leave the ranks after 20 years, made striking statements to Independent Turkish about the process.
Serhed Kerim, a Soviet Kurd who joined the PKK in the same year instead of starting law school in 1998, ie at the age of 19, and rose to the top of the command in time, after staying in the PKK for 20 years, again in 2018, in his own words ” He decided to leave the organization on the grounds of “despairing his hope and in-organization execution attempts” .
Gülbahar Altaş from The Independent, together with Serhed Kerim, described the peace process between 1998-2018, when he was in the PKK, as “a game where hopes were dashed” , the HDP-Kandil relationship, the trench incidents, the PKK’s involvement in Syria and Iran. made an extremely important interview about the issues including its presence in Shengal (Sinjar) and the Iraqi Kurdistan Region.
Highlights of this stunning interview:
First of all, what I’m wondering is: Why did you join the PKK instead of starting law school at the age of 19?
I’m from the Soviet Kurds. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 90s, many nations established independent countries. They got their freedom. As a Kurdish youth and with my family, we were exposed to immigration and oppression like other members of our people. Despite all the pressures, of course, we did not give up our Kurdish patriotism, on the contrary, I grew up in a family that embraced these values.
I also fight for my people and our homeland; I wanted to fight for my rights. At that time, as in many other regions, the PKK was operating and making propaganda for the independence of the Kurds and Kurdistan in our region as well. I also joined the PKK.
I grew up in a patriotic and enlightened family. Education was also given importance. However, instead of starting university at that time, I joined the PKK. Maybe I thought that under the conditions of the time, our rights would be gained in a shorter time with the armed struggle… I spent 20 years in the organization and as a result, I left in 2018.
“PKK was going to take place as a formation in the Kurdistan Region Government, Bayık prevented it!”
Well, after joining the PKK, did you find what you hoped for?
It was said that the purpose of the organization was Kurdish and Kurdistan, and my expectation was to provide and liberate the life that my people all over Kurdistan deserve. We, like other peoples, hoped to live independently in our own land, and as I said, that’s why I joined the organization.
Unfortunately, it was said that “This year we will save Kurdistan, this year is the year of independence, we will save it next year” . Until 2002, I had hope. In other words, I had hopes that there would be something new with the congress to be held.
With the overthrow of Saddam, a Kurdish government would be established in Southern Kurdistan (Iraqi Kurdistan Region). The PKK was also expected to join as a formation. It was a great expectation especially for us in the organization. But they destroyed it too. Of course, as I witnessed different events over time, I realized that the expectations were not met…
Where was the congress held? How would the PKK take part in the first Kurdistan Region Government to be established? Could you explain this subject in more detail?
Of course. The congress was held in Kandil between 2002-2003 in a cave around Martyr Harun.
As for the process of joining the Kurdistan Region Government; As it is known, international powers wanted to establish a common Kurdish government by bringing the KDP and KDP together in the Kurdistan Region after Saddam’s regime in 2003 . In a way, we can say that it is an attempt to lay the groundwork for the PKK to take place as a political formation before the Erbil government.
Abdullah Öcalan’s lawyers also brought Öcalan’s letter to Kandil at that time. In the letter; He instructed that “no one who has been at the helm of the party until now should take part in the executive .”
As it is known, there was a council in the party before. In the letter; Massoud Barzani was asked to preside over the Kurdish people and Leyla Zana to help. For this purpose, Mesud Barzani was met several times in Erbil.
Öcalan’s instructions were read to all of us. Abdullah Öcalan emphasized that the organization should be renamed as KADEK (Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress).
He even wanted Karayılan to lead himself for a while in order to settle the process after the party’s name was changed. Some names, including Osman Öcalan and Nizamettin Taş, organized the congress.
The instructions were already included in the Imrali letters. These have gone down in history. Zübeyir Aydar, Remzi Kartal, PJAK official, intellectuals from Southern Kurdistan attended the congress. So it was a very comprehensive congress.
The aim was “to change the name of the party with a new structure, to prevent it from being associated with terrorism, and to be together in a democratic way by participating in the new Kurdistan government at the party level.”
Subsequently, on April 4, 2002, the first day of the congress, it was decided to stop the activities carried out under the name PKK and to use the name KADEK as the top organization.
However, Apo’s suggestions and instructions were not followed. This project and process was undermined by names such as Mustafa Karasu and Duran Kalkan under the leadership of Cemil Bayık. Even though Karayılan sort of reluctantly takes side with Bayık when he is put under pressure, he is playing the middle in general anyway…
Let me also say this; After holding the Kurdistan flag for 2 days at the congress, which is a flag representing the Kurdish people and a sacred flag, Bayık lifted the flag from there.
As a matter of fact, Cemil Bayık also gives place in his archive speeches about this period. In fact, Bayık, while talking about this process, describes the Kurdistan Flag of Osman Öcalan and Nizamettin Taş as the flag of the KDP , and shamelessly complains about this situation, saying that “this flag will not be the flag of Kandil, and that it is spreading within the Kurdish society as they insisted in the congress” . .
This attempt was an attempt to ensure the unity of the Kurds and their gains; but they did not allow it. Subsequently, when the disagreements with names such as Osman Öcalan and Nizamettin Taş reached the limit, they were liquidated from the party.
Otherwise, they would be executed. They also took refuge in the Kurdistan government at that time. Many people who left the PKK or wanted to be liquidated have already been murdered.
Of course, Bayık did this on Iran’s initiative. In order to eliminate the threats against Iran… As there are many Kurds in Iran, there are Azeri and other minorities claiming rights. In the event that the initiative was concluded, it would mean that these groups would claim rights.
As a result, after a while, they prevented the PKK’s name being used and changed again. They prevented working intellectuals and many other groups from working.
Even today, we see that Remzi Kartal, Zübeyir Aydar and many others do not allow them to work for the Kurds and Kurdistan in Europe. In short, they did not listen to Abdullah Öcalan. They even tried to kill Öcalan’s brother, Osman Öcalan.
The unity of the Kurds was undermined by this process. Subsequently, the Kurdistan Government was established, although it has shortcomings, the whole world now recognizes this government, representing the Kurds.
What about the PKK! It got worse, weakened in four parts, as well as in many countries such as Europe, Scandinavia and Russia. This happened in 2002-2005. In other words, whether we say it or not, these have taken their place in history.
Didn’t Turkey see this merger as a threat?
Of course, Turkey sees it as a threat to itself, but it had to remain silent in the face of this situation. Because at that time, Turkey was not that strong and it did not have the power to prevent it.
What changed in terms of adherence to Apo’s principles, which was defined as the “leading path” in Qandil after Apo’s arrest ?
In general, there was no noticeable change at first. Apo’s directives and studies were continued. The reason for this was that if Apo’s name was not mentioned, no one would take Cemil Bayık seriously; they had to mention his name. Already when they are stuck, they are voicing their Kurdish and Kurdistan rights.
“After 2003, the PKK is not Abdullah Öcalan’s PKK. Nokta”
Although Apo is still accepted as the imprisoned leader of the PKK, based on what you have said, Cemil Bayık is currently speaking in Qandil. Well, how valid are Öcalan’s explanations and instructions in the current situation?
The lamp is in the hands of Cemil Bayık… A bandit is like a mafia, a gang leader. After 2003, the PKK is not Abdullah Öcalan’s PKK. Dot!
I say this very clearly and concretely. I am one of the closest witnesses to this. The PKK is not the PKK founded by Öcalan. Cemil Bayık reshaped the PKK, and for 19 years Bayık has not allowed threats or attacks on Iran.
You speak clearly. Can you give an example of what you witnessed?
Yes, one of the things I witnessed was the liquidation process defined especially after 2004 in the organization. We were reading Abdullah Öcalan’s letters from İmralı.
For example; The way Cemil Bayık and his group and Osman Öcalan and his circle interpreted the letters were different. Cemil Bayık interpreted the letters in line with his own interests and expressed them in that way.
Osman Öcalan, on the other hand, conveyed everything written as it was. For example, Apo; He used many negative and unkind sentences for Cemil Bayık in his letters. He even gave instructions for Bayık to stand aside for a while.
However, they did not fulfill it. In other words, Abdullah Öcalan’s instructions and suggestions were not fulfilled by the current administration. There are of course many examples like this.
In 2003 we were going to intervene in Iran. Bayik wouldn’t let me. After all, nothing is in the will of the PKK’s officials anymore, Iran is doing whatever instructions it gives. They are under the influence of Iran and they are 100 percent under the influence of Hezbollah. Whatever they say, and as long as they can, they do everything to prevent Iran from being harmed.
Why Iran and Hezbollah?
It is actually based on the Mahsum Korkmaz Academy Camp established in Lebanon. Bayık had increased his dialogues with Iran at that time. In other words, in his time, Cemil Bayık carried out all the activities and diplomatic works of the PKK, especially in Iran.
At that time, he naturally established some friendly relations. Therefore, they cannot get out of their control. It conducts politics not within its borders, but in places and regions outside its borders, and Iran itself determines it.
Today, we see many examples of Iranian politics, and as the Kurdish nation, we suffer the consequences. They pursue the same policy in Shengal, Kirkuk, Mahmur and Rojava. Kandil, in a way, relies on Iran and Hezbollah for their own salvation.
From time to time, many statements are made from both Qandil and HDP segments that there is an isolation against Apo and that meetings are prevented. Even recently, HDP has made statements and demonstrations on this subject again. So how should we read it, based on what you said?
Yes, unfortunately it is very difficult to say that we are a society with a political culture. Yes, we know politics as a society, but to do politics is to develop it for the interests of the people and society. Otherwise, politics is not very good propaganda.
They exploit the goodwill of the people. We have seen it in the past and we see it now. For example; You look out of the blue, a hunger strike is started based on a reason, the result is zero success and what really happens to our young people who started with good intentions.
Believing that something will change with these initiatives, he leaves those who resort to this path to disappointment rather than hope… Or Kurdish students gather for a reason, and then the police surround them and take them into custody. These students gather knowing that they will be caught. Everything is done with instruction and direction. There are thousands of examples like this…
This is not a wise policy and behavior for the people. What good will it do to arrest those young people? Just as those young people are deprived of their freedom, other young people who witnessed the events are also intimidated. Such situations are only a service to the enemies of the Kurds.
Abdullah Öcalan thousands of times; In his letters , he gave the instruction “Do not give my name, do your own politics. Do your activities, work. Do not even include my name and posters” . What is being done; They cannot go beyond Qandil’s instruction, they are afraid. We have seen many similar examples.
For example; Ms. Leyla Zana made an effort for the Kurds. She has held meetings with Massoud Barzani many times. She made great efforts to solve the problem of the Kurdish people. However, Kandil did not allow this every time, he was threatened. What happened? Leyla Zana also took shelter in silence.
Look, while media channels close to the PKK are establishing names such as Ronahi TV and Stêrk TV , at least the Kurds in Turkey are called “TRT Kurdî”. Here is the definition of Kurds and Kurdish identity. The PKK, on the other hand, does nothing in the name of Kurdishness; he only uses Kurdishness as a tool.
Let me go over Kandil again; There is no other party in a party. They have taken the HDP into their own body. A prominent person in HDP, when you look at him after a while, they discredit and intimidate him with 1-2 words.
They do not know what they want, and they leave the people in an ambiguity. People are loyal to their homeland and land. We are talking about a mass of people who go to the mountains without water and without food and struggle. Many people, like me, fought for the rights of our people in the mountains, plains and cities; but the result is service to Iran and other Kurdish enemies… These people have infiltrated the Kurds like a virus.
“There is no participation in the PKK like before”
How is the PKK’s strength in general right now? Does the public participate as in previous years?
It is not like the old one. Neither in Europe, nor in Turkey, nor in Rojhilat… Our people no longer go out to the streets for Kandil. It’s obvious… There are people who took to the streets via the PYD in Rojava. PKK cadres close to the Syrian regime are putting pressure on the people and pouring them into the streets. Also, there is no participation like before…
One of the issues that are talked about from time to time is the child fighters inside the PKK. Are there many child fighters in the organization?
Yes. There are many child warriors. There are images and evidence as well. It does not consist of a few people or a few divisions. These are battalions. These battalions are attached to Duran Kalkan.
How many people do these battalions consist of?
At the time I was there, it consisted of 60-70 people. Recently, these battalions have been reduced due to airborne attacks. Some changes have been made; In other words, I have not been in it since 2018, and military and strategic changes are experienced intermittently in the organization. So I don’t know exactly what’s going on right now.
These battalions existed for many years. There were children aged 12, 13, 14, 15…. They teach these children to be a sacrifice, and then they sacrifice for their own interests and for Iran’s interests.
Well, it is claimed that there are internal executions within the PKK. Have you witnessed?
I’ve never been a witness. However, we can say that I witnessed it indirectly! They can target guerrillas who are opposing, sharp and disobeying the instructions in the bombardments, or they can open a few rounds of fire at Turkish outposts as a formality and end their lives when Turkish soldiers respond with heavy weapons. What is this if not executions?
“Even a few documents and images that Iran will publish against Kandil may bring their end.”
The PKK is on the “terrorist” list in many countries, especially in Turkey. How do you see it as someone who has been in it for a long time?
It is a fact that the PKK has been recognized as a “terrorist organization” in many countries and in the international arena. And it wasn’t just put on the terror list. From time to time, attempts are made to remove the PKK from this list, but this is very difficult.
In order for the PKK to be removed from the terrorist list, many cases need to be discussed and examined. For example; Mandela’s trial lasted 28 years. Currently, there are not thousands, but millions of cases against the PKK. It can take years for each case to be examined separately in international courts.
If the efforts to rename the PKK and change its system in 2003 had been successful, this process would have been easier; but at this stage this is impossible!
Moreover, even if the PKK wants to change its name, Iran will not allow it in any way. Even a few documents and images that Iran will publish against Kandil may bring their end. Iran has completely taken the PKK under its control.
“Kandil disrupted the peace process”
Let’s come to the peace process, which is one of the issues I’m curious about. You were in the organization at that time. What exactly happened in Qandil at that time?
During the last peace process you mentioned, I was on duty in Rojava. But let me say this. This process was started with a unilateral ceasefire after Abdullah Öcalan’s arrest, actually on his orders, and this process lasted until 2006-2007.
The guerrillas in the north (in Turkey) would gradually withdraw to the Kurdistan Region. At times the guns were also tightened, but not violently. Subsequently, it continued with the 2009 negotiations and the final peace process. Although many political opportunities were provided, this process could not be carried out successfully.
Changing the name of KADEK, the peace process… All of them come to the present day as a chain. It was played with the hope of the Kurdish people, and even the Turkish people. MHP, CHP, AK Party have their own policies and each of them wants to be in power. In this process, all parties targeted each other.
Despite all the troubles and obstacles, the Kurds took out about 80 deputies. The Kurds had to continue their work in the civil movement as needed; however, they dressed Kurdish politicians in guerilla outfits and included them in the talks.
It was the Turkish government that had to hold the talks and wore guerilla outfits! Karayılan and Duran Kalkan were supposed to get up and take pictures with the representatives of the Turkish government. What was HDP doing there? HDP is a major Kurdish political party. It was a party that fought for its people in civil life. But what happened? Under the influence of the PKK, especially Cemil Bayık, Karayılan, Kalkan could not get out of it. And the situation is getting worse.
So, did Qandil disrupt the peace process?
Yes. Candle broke. They broke this with Duran Kalkan, especially with Cemil Bayık.
Qandil administration blamed Ankara for the disruption of the process. Based on what you said, why did Kandil disrupt the process?
Now it is obvious whether we accept certain things or not. Turkey is a state and it has a system. It is clear that they will not accept the items put forward… For years, the Kurdish people have been under pressure in Turkey. No one can deny this.
A people who have been deprived of their native language and cannot even use their Kurdish names… Many things have changed with the peace process. In a positive sense, very good steps were taken; however, neither Qandil nor the Turkish government took any significant steps towards the progress of the process, on the contrary, it moved further away.
HDP also did not play the necessary role. For the reasons I have just mentioned… Abdullah Öcalan had a letter. In the letter; “The PKK says it will destroy Turkey, and Turkey says it will destroy the PKK. If the PKK does not destroy Turkey, it is despicable. If Turkey does not destroy the PKK, it is inferior to him.”
Now interpret what this means. The realization of the peace process was not really wanted. For example, Turkish authorities can do all kinds of things to protect their power, and PKK officials, who are made up of a group. These are the mafia, the gang, the thugs – I’m saying that very clearly – they are protecting themselves. Their problem is not the Kurds and Kurdistan at all. They are trying to sustain themselves.
“What is HDP doing for Demirtaş’s release?“
You clearly say that HDP was not successful in this process and acted under the guidance of Kandil…
Yes, it’s a fact! This was the biggest mistake. The HDP should not have approached the PKK in any way. I am asking again; What was Selahattin Demirtaş doing in Kandil? On top of that, they dressed in guerilla outfits and took pictures of them.
HDP is a political party within the Turkish state. What would happen if they were continuing their work, if they increased their 80 deputies to 350 deputies? They have now gradually imprisoned their deputies, especially the vast majority of Kurdish deputies.
There is a saying; After all, the situation is clear right now, saying “Look at the result, not Hatice”… How many deputies are in prison right now; Together they destroyed the hope of the people.
Now he is hoping for help from the CHP’s door. What’s the difference with CHP? Many Turks also supported HDP and voted in this process. They destroyed all hopes and expectations. What did they do? connected to the PKK. It was not needed.
Aside from that period, an instruction came to them from Kandil recently. HDP organizations and their deputies wanted to take the Öcalan march to Gemlik and go to İmralı. So, what did they do for the ex-co-chairman of the party, Selahattin Demirtaş in Edirne Prison? Kurdish youth, parties and formations are still being sacrificed to Qandil.
“Kandil threatened HDP”
Has HDP been misled?
Of course, and not only were they misled, they were used, deceived, threatened, intimidated… People in HDP are civilians and are engaged in politics. So what can they do when threatened with death?
What can a sincere person like Osman Baydemir do if defamation is initiated against him? What can Selahattin Demirtaş do? Leyla Zana is like that again. How many times did they say bad words about Leyla Zana? There are many examples like these. Would our people want these figures, names and deputies loved by the Kurdish people, to fall into this situation?
Do you think the peace process will start again?
So hard! I don’t think the PKK will be dealt with from now on either. The interlocutor is neither Karayılan, Kalkan nor Bayık. They screwed everything up…
Well, who do you think will be addressed from the Kurdish front in case of a possible peace process?
There was HDP by the Kurds. HDP’s status is ambiguous… Occasionally, it approaches the CHP; Moreover, its relations with the CHP are weak. Their common goal is to act jointly against the current Turkish government. Otherwise, the priority is not the rights of the Kurds…
Also, HDP, under the influence of Qandil, cannot fully get close to the CHP either of its own will. Kandil interrupts the rapprochement in a way. I don’t think the public will go after them like they used to…
Some of the HDP supporters went specifically to Europe. Many are in prison, and what can the rest do in the current situation? From all sides, the range of motion is narrowed/constricted. It is also unclear how exactly other Kurdish parties are addressed.
“Kandil broke the will of the Kurdish people in the trenches”
Let us come to the trench incidents in Kurdish cities. In a previous interview with Nizamettin Taş, Taş described the trenches as a “milestone” . Were you in the PKK at that time? What was the actual purpose of establishing the trenches?
In the trench issue, the guerrillas were in the mountains of Turkey (Serhed Kerim used the expression ‘Northern Kurdistan’ here – ed.n.) . The PKK could not directly tell these guerrillas to “retract” . The aim here was both the elimination of the armed forces from there and the weakening of the armed force there.
As a result, many of the forces there withdrew. Compared to other parts of Kurdistan, the will of our people in Kurdish cities was quite high in revolt.
What happened with the ditches? The Kurdish people were suppressed, weakened and suppressed. Those who were arrested were arrested, those who were not arrested remained silent and stayed at home.
What happened was also a game aimed at breaking the will of the Kurdish people. Murat Karayılan was also interested in this issue. Foreign powers warned about this issue, but they did not listen in any way. Yes, ditches were a milestone in that sense. Never in Kurdish history has urban activities been so unsuccessful.
What do you mean by external forces that warn Kandil?
Major states and some international organizations. I do not want to give names exactly… In short, those in Qandil did not listen to anyone and broke the will of the Kurdish people. They left the people hopeless in every way.
Do not look, there really was no serious military power; they drive small groups to the side streets, but in general, the will of the Kurdish people has been broken.
This process was actually HDP’s responsibility. They could have intervened more peacefully, but they could not do that either. They connected the city war to the military process, they failed. Until now, the war continues. There are still conflicts and bombardments in the mountains. Both guerrillas are martyred and civilians…
Well, their defeat after defeat in Kurdish cities in this process was attributed to the justification that “incorrect information was sent to Qandil”. You are one of the witnesses of the process in Qandil, have you received any wrong information?
Their failure was attributed to a number of reasons. Let me give you an example from Afrin; Turkey announced that it would attack Afrin. What was the PKK doing in Afrin; There were already PYD, YPG, DSG there. Qandil made the statement, “Let Turkey come, let’s show their day, we will make Afrin a tomb for them . “
What happened , Apo himself said, “Don’t raise my posters anywhere,” and they hung their posters both in the trenches and in Afrin and sang the party anthems. They created provocation in the eyes of the Turks. Will the Turks miss it too? He used the rhetoric of “they are terrorist organizations and they are doing nothing but provoking” to the international media and the international public .
On top of that, Karayılan blamed his failures on the public and said, “The people did not fight, the people acted cowardly” . Unbearable! What else should our poor people do? He himself initiated and led this politics and city war, and he is the one who failed.
Also, do they get up and say misinformation and get out of this sin? In short, what happened has happened to our innocent, oppressed youth and people. Our young people were deliberately killed in those clashes.
“PJAK is a shield protecting Iran”
Currently, there is PJAK under the control of the PKK in Iran. As far as we can see, PJAK is not in the foreground like PYD-YPG or YBŞ in Shengal… What exactly is PJAK’s role in Iran?
Let me tell you the role of PJAK. First of all, let me state that many names involved in the execution of PJAK are from the Islamic Republic of Iran. The so-called founding purpose of PJAK was “to protect the rights of Kurds in Rojhilat and liberate Kurdish regions.”
However, at the current stage, it also hinders the work of other Kurdish parties and organizations that are fighting in Rojhilat or want to rebel against the Iranian regime.
PJAK acts as a kind of buffer in this region. In other words , it is a shield to protect “Iran and the Shiite Crescent” . Focused on preventing the activities of Rojhilat Peshmerga…
What you said reminded me of the conflict between the KDP-I (Kurdistan Democratic Party – Iran) Peshmerga who wanted to build a headquarters in the Kelashin region of the Zagros Mountain on May 24, 2015 and the PKK members…
Yes, in fact, that incident is an example of what purpose was served; At that time, KDP-I Peshmerga restructured and started their military training. These Peshmerga, consisting of Kurds from Rojhilat, do not accept the Iranian system in any way.
KDP-I was already using this area before, but when they wanted to settle in this area again, Qandil did not give permission and clashes broke out between them. Kelashin region has a strategic region as it is close to Iran. In another sense, Iran put PJAK into action here and struck a blow to them (Peshmerga).
Both Rojhilat Peshmerga and guerrillas lost their lives in the clashes. Logically, PJAK supported these attempts of the KDP-I Peshmerga and fought together against Iran. but they failed and reached an agreement by the mediators.
What happened, again, happened to Kurdish lives on both sides. PJAK does not allow Iran to have any Kurdish parties and organizations other than its shield and itself. In fact, I say this openly; Without PJAK, the Kurdish forces here would have brought an end to this regime that hangs the Kurds every day…
“The war with Iran is expected to start at the hands of Turkey”
In your speech, you often refer to the rapprochement between Iran and Qandil. What exactly does Qandil’s proximity to Iran gain for the PKK, if not the Kurds?
The Kandil-Iran rapprochement, as you said, ensures that the PKK’s officials, not the Kurds, survive. As I mentioned at the beginning, the PKK; They are Cemil Bayık, Duran Kalkan, Mustafa Karasu and Murat Karayılan, and the guerrillas are used by them.
I was also a PKK member and I did not go to the party. I joined the PKK for the rights of my people. As I said, these people went beyond our aims by using the name of the organization. Qandil’s only hope is Iran right now…
However, I find it useful to say this: It is expected that the war with Iran will start at the hands of Turkey. The whole world hopes for it.
Just as Abdullah Öcalan was in Syria, Turkey directed its forces to the Syrian border and had Öcalan handed over to them; He announced that they would intervene otherwise, and then Öcalan was expelled from there and sent to İmralı with a conspiracy.
Leaders in Qandil, who are on Interpol’s search list, can’t go anywhere. As I said, their problem is not the Kurds and Kurdistan, but only to prolong their lives. They continue this with the influence of Iran and Hezbollah.
Based on your discourse, should the PKK and Qandil be defined separately in the current situation? So on the one hand, the PKK base; supporters and guerrillas, on the one hand, the Qandil administration….
The whole point is Kandil. Kandil is using the base and all members of the party. The base and its supporters are watching propaganda broadcasts. The guerrillas do not have the necessary means of communication; it is what is said in trainings and speeches.
During my stay, brains are kind of formatted. In it, I also noticed that; I realized that we are serving Iran in one place, Syria in another, and other countries in another place.
For example in Turkey; Our Kurds, who believe in their sincere cause, can be imprisoned for years with one or two slogans. What’s happening; It happens to our young people and their families who are loyal to the party. Those who spend years in prison notice the games played afterwards, but as I said, what happens is to them and the years they lose.
“The PKK is what keeps Assad alive”
Immediately after the internal conflicts that started in Syria, the Kobanê People’s Assembly assumed the administration of the city. July 19, 2012 was accepted as the starting date of the “Rojava revolution” . In our preliminary meeting, you specifically said that you were in Rojava. What really happened and is happening in Rojava?
The Rojava issue includes other countries, especially Arab countries. With the start of the civil war in Libya, Syria also got its share from it.
I ask; well, was Bashar Assad stronger than Muammar Gaddafi? Was he smarter than Hosni Mubarak? No!
It is the PKK that has kept Assad alive so far. If the PKK had been in Egypt, they would not have let Hosni Mubarak go. PKK protected/is protecting Assad. Without the PKK, other Kurdish forces would have deployed to the region.
During my time in Rojava, I witnessed that 80 percent of Rojava people adopted the principles of Mullah Mustafa Barzani. Moreover, the fathers and grandfathers of the current generation also struggled with Mustafa Barzani. Most of them wanted the KDP to support them. However, the PKK settled in the region at the request of the Iranian and Damascus administrations.
Let me tell you an incident that I experienced; We were fighting the Syrian state in Haseke, and on the same day we went to Kamişlo and bought weapons very easily. There was Kamişlo Airport, we could not understand that weapons were being transferred to us by planes, and at that moment we did not know exactly where the source came from; emerged over time. In other words, we were fighting the regime on the one hand, and it was sending us weapons on the other.
For example, we took many cities and towns. When we went to fight in these regions, after firing a gun or two, the Syrian soldiers directly handed over their weapons to us and retreated.
Commemorating an organization on the terrorist list, a people who rose up to protect their rights with the revolution, did more harm than good to the people in this region. See how many Kurds are left in Rojava? Many live in exile.
Arabs were settled in Kurdish areas through the PKK, Damascus and Turkey. The demographics of Kurdish cities were changed. When I was in Rojava, there were 3 million Kurds, now there are not even 300 thousand left.
Where did these Kurds go? For whom is he fighting right now? “For a democratic Syria,” they say. What will happen to me if Syria is a democratic Syria, and if Syria is socialist? They intimidated and destroyed our youth and people, saying “Democratic Syria”, “Democratic Turkey” . I need the rights that the Kurds deserve on earth too…
Can Afrin be under Kurdish control again?
No, it’s very difficult. Based on my military experience, it is very difficult to retake that area. Turkey is stationed there. If they could, they would save one square meter of land in Northern Kurdistan…
- Well, why did you withdraw from Serekaniyê (Resulayn), which is of great importance for the Kurds?
Let me explain this matter. When we entered the first Rojava Kurdistan , we were instructed : “You will liberate that place, hand it over to the people there, and leave. Let the people there rule themselves .” We went and saved; however, we were ordered to “do not withdraw” immediately afterwards .
At that time, we used to say “we are the third line” . So we were not in Syria or anywhere else. Because our aim was only to protect the lives and lands of our Kurdish people who are under pressure in the region.
In the process, on the one hand, it got closer to the coalition, Russia for a period, each side tamed the PKK, in common terms. We, who were in the war with Afrin and the other with Serekaniyê, were shocked by what happened. Once we saw, the situation is more serious than it seems and we are in a chaos…
As a result, he had to withdraw. In fact, Mazlum Abdi said, “We have nothing to do with the Turkish state, we do not harm them. We do not want them to attack us. ” Well, Turkey also carries out its own politics, will it withdraw? All parties in the region are carrying out their own politics, right or wrong.
“Mazlum Abdi is being tried to be intimidated by the PKK, the people of the region do not allow this”
Did you mention Mazlum Abdi? Abdi is regarded as a brilliant commander by the Kurds and even by the US-led coalition forces. It is said that in previous years, Qandil dismissed Abdi, withdrawing him, but backed down after the reaction of the coalition and the people of the region. How true is this and how dominant is Qandil in Rojava in the current situation?
Yes. Mazlum Abdi is a sincere commander; It wants to establish Kurdistan and to take visible steps in the region, and it is working for this. Of course, this is not only his aim, but also the aim of the coalition. Efforts are made for the gains of the Kurds in both the Kurdistan Region and Rojava.
The 100th anniversary of the Lausanne map is almost over, and the parties are striving to ensure positive developments. Mazlum Abdi is also the people of that region, and he must clearly say that; “We have nothing to do with the PKK!” The more PKK says, the more they get stuck. The people in the region are in a more difficult situation.
Mazlum Abdi is trying to be intimidated by the PKK, but the people of the region do not allow it. Kandil, which gives passage to Syria and Turkey in Rojava, does not allow Roj Peshmerga. Let them pass to their lands and protect their territories together. Dozens of foreign and internally oriented foreign armed forces are not in Rojava right now?!.
In the eyes of the PKK, dozens of foreign forces should enter Rojava but not other Kurdish forces… They are watching this in every region, and they continue to do so. They accuse those who oppose with spying. However, the biggest of the bad ones are those in the administration…
“Neither the PKK is the old PKK, nor is Turkey the old Turkey”
Turkish officials made one after another statement about a possible new Rojava operation. If the US does not give Ankara the green light for the operation, can Ankara carry out an operation?
There are currently three major powers in Syria, namely the USA, Russia and Turkey. Turkey should not be underestimated here. It may not wait for anyone’s green light to enter Rojava. As a matter of fact, we have seen examples in the recent past.
Let Kandil make propaganda as much as he wants, Turkey is a strong country militarily. How did he take Afrin, Serekaniyê, Gırê Spî (Tel Abyad) if he wasn’t strong? It continues to threaten Rojava.
Here, the PKK has a particular responsibility. If you look at the recent statements of Qandil, the same speeches; “This time it won’t be the same, this time it will be harshly retaliated” etc. etc. They were like that in our time, and now; so what’s the result?
The PKK is showing its presence in Rojava to Turkey’s eyes. While doing this, he knows that Turkey will use this situation as a trump card. Subsequently, with the attacks of Turkey, both the diaspora and other Kurdish organizations and lobbies are pouring into the streets and calling for help from international organizations.
The response they received was “Turkey shows the existence of the PKK with documents and the PKK is on the terror list, there is nothing we can do.” That’s the usual scenario…
What happens is the civilian Kurds and the fighting Kurdish forces in the region with the attacks. Think about it, Turkey is a border neighbor, while other powers are in Rojava from a different geography.
It is a fact that if there is some compression in the region, even if it is not completely, the USA and Russia will not hesitate to withdraw. We’ve seen examples of that. If Turkey enters, it oppresses… We see its presence in Afrin. Immigrants took refuge in the Kurdistan Region.
Does Kandil have one year left to live?
Turkish Interior Minister Süleyman Soylu recently announced that they will “plant a flag in Kandil before 2023”. Does Kandil really have one year left to live? What are you thinking?
Süleyman Soylu expressed these words about the current conjuncture of his country; in particular, it may be basing it on its advanced military strength! I’ve just stated that the PKK/Kandil is not the same as before – the PKK has been weakened in every way in the past – nor Turkey is the old Turkey!
Although Turkey is struggling with human rights violations, especially the fundamental rights of the Kurds, and the economic crisis at the moment, it is militarily stronger than in the past. It is one of the most important forces of NATO.
As I mentioned at the beginning, it is stationed in most of the Kurdish-dominated regions in Rojava. They are settled in mountainous areas in the Kurdistan Region. With each passing day, the PKK has weakened both in terms of its social base and military, economic, logistics and participation.
These are real and Ankara is aware of them. As a result, he is even more encouraged… For example; People in Sinune (Shengal) recently want all forces, including the PKK, to leave their region, and this demand has gradually spread to the region.
The Kurdistan government always calls for the PKK to leave its territory. In Rojava, too, people are afraid to express their discomfort, but they express their discomfort as they go beyond their borders. In other words, the PKK is weakened in every way.
OK, Turkish authorities can do all kinds of harm for their own interests. Well, is it natural for the Qandil administration to harm its people so much for their own interests?
Known for its democracy, Sweden also reacted to Erdogan’s last words, but Sweden announced that it would enact the amended terror law on 1 July.
Politics is a game, and even the most democratic country acts in its own self-interest. As Sweden is a democratic country, it also puts the interests of the country first.
There will be a reaction to what I have said. Let’s admit it, let’s not; this is the case…
In his last statement, Karayılan says, “This war will take a long time and be prepared accordingly . ” If this war continues for another 40 years, it will not be successful. No war can be concluded except peace… They always stick their heads in the sand.
What is the PKK ‘s purpose in the Kurdistan Region ?
Let’s come to the PKK’s presence in the Kurdistan Region. Known as the main center of the organization, Kandil, a part of the Zagros Mountains on the Iraq-Iran border, is located in the Kurdistan Region . During the Saddam era, Mahmur Camp is established. While the Erbil administration argues that “they allowed the PKK to deploy on its territory, but the PKK abused this situation” within the scope of the protocol signed between the KDP-PKK in 1983, Kandil blames the KDP administration in this regard. Without further ado, what is the PKK ‘s purpose in the Kurdistan Region ? You have been in this region for a long time while you were in the organization. As a result, you are more in control of the events…
Yes, as you mentioned, Kandil is partly located in Iran and partly in the Kurdistan Region. In the current situation, the PKK’s presence here has mostly undertaken the task of shielding Iran.
If they don’t fire a gun or two at the Turkish outposts here, the base asks, “If that’s the case, what are you doing there?” he will ask. Presence in the region; It is a policy against Kurds and Kurdistan, but it is nothing but drawing Turkey into the war in the region.
There has been conflict in this region for years; what happened, even a meter of soil was taken? No! They fought this year as well. Each time they took the lives of people, “No, three guerilla martyrs, five soldiers died. No, we will continue the struggle.” Likewise, the opposite party; “So many members of the organization were killed, we have so many martyrs.” What happened, who won?
The only source of income for the people in the region is agriculture and farming. What else does the presence of the PKK bring to the people of the region in the lands where they are free anyway ?
Also, as I mentioned before, the Peshmerga would be deployed if the PKK was not in these regions. As you can see, the mind of the people/peoples is being played with.
Is the PKK knowingly using civilians as shields?
It kind of is, Turkish drones are attacking from three sides, it attacked Kelar a few days ago. I ask; What is the PKK doing in Kelar? What is it revolutionizing? How do they get into vehicles and move around so comfortably, endangering the safety of civilians?
Many civilians lost their lives again in Duhok. Technology has developed, although military technologies can be pinpointed, civilians can also be killed in operations. Those civilians are also Kurds, so civilians are now forced to leave their lands and homes, at least to protect their own safety.
There are also views that if the PKK is not in the region, Turkey will control the Kurdistan Region like Rojava , what do you think?
On the contrary, if there is no PKK; Turkey would not enter neither Rojava nor the Kurdistan Region. Turkey’s whole justification is the PKK. Or will Turkey dare to enter the Kurdistan Region in particular?
They entered the territory of Kurdistan, saying , “No, the PKK opened fire of harassment, no one attacked the police station .” The PKK does not deny it either, whether it does it or not. Linking each of its attacks to “terrorism and the PKK, which is on the terror list, Turkey also entered Rojava, entered Kurdish cities, and also entered Iraqi Kurdistan.
In addition, Turkish soldiers are deployed in every region that Turkey has taken from the PKK. Turkish soldiers are constantly being deployed as “defense is the field of struggle” . I have already stated in my previous speeches… Instruction would come from Kandil; “Save this region from the enemy and hand it over to the people of the region.” Afterwards, when the region was liberated, formations and parties would be formed and deployed under their own guidance, we would stay there for a while and this time we would be transferred to other regions. Here is the reason for the Turkish soldiers to enter the Kurdish regions…
“The Peshmerga did not withdraw in Shengal, we fought with the Peshmerga against ISIS”
In August 2014, you were in Shengal as part of the PKK during the war against ISIS. Many claims were made, especially the claim that the Peshmerga withdrew from Shengal with the attack of ISIS. What really happened in Shengal and especially on the PKK front?
Yes, I was there when ISIS attacked Mosul and Shengal. I fought there for about a week. We have already stopped ISIS on the Rabia-Tilkoşe border, I was seriously injured in the conflict.
Now, as a person witness to the event, I can say this with certainty. As guerrillas in Shengal, we fought with the Peshmerga against ISIS. The Peshmerga rushed to our aid with all their armed forces. Without them, we would not have been successful in those areas.
Likewise, they would not have been successful if we had not been there. In fact, it was the Peshmerga who later brought the coalition and international forces to our aid in Kobani.
Do not look at the PKK and opposition media that broadcast such propaganda. With a few videos, they passed the news that the Peshmerga had fled. They filmed and reflected the few people who had fled from the war and cost 500 Peshmerga in the region. One battalion was withdrawn, 20 battalions were brought.
We fought together by our side. After rescuing Shengal together, Kandil deployed to Shengal as in Rojava. When we asked “Why” , “The Peshmerga left Shengal and fled?” they said. Well, if it was the Peshmerga who left Shengal and fled, who were they who fought with us at the front? Wasn’t it peshmerga? In addition, there were Yazidis among the Peshmerga.
If you look at it, each of our Yazidi Kurds had 2-3 guns in their house, why didn’t they try to protect themselves? Do you think fighting is that easy? When they attacked with ISIS suicide bombers or bomb-laden vehicles, neither Iraqi, Syrian nor coalition soldiers would be left in front of them. It was self-destructing as someone entered the crowd, dozens of people were dying instantly.
Child’s play? Is it folly to act as a hero from such a distance and over someone else’s life? Do you know when ISIS was defeated? After all the military and strategic analysis of the organization is done when support comes from the coalition forces. It was defeated after all forces became one.
In short, at that time, the PKK somehow persuaded our Yazidi Kurds and stayed in that region, and now a group of Yazidis is staying with them. You know, 80-90 percent of the other Yazidis are currently in the Kurdistan Region or abroad. Since the presence of the PKK provided a peaceful environment for Shengal, as they say, Shengal is in a very good situation, why don’t the Yazidis go to Shengal? On the contrary, they have returned.
So what did the Qandil administration do after it was deployed? He brought Hashd al-Shaabi. So he brought Iran. In the middle of Shengal, they hung all the flags except the Kurdistan flag. In another sense, they took Shengal within the scope of the Shiite Crescent project.
“PKK is serving the Shiite Crescent in Shengal”
So are you saying that the PKK served and fought to bring the Shiite Crescent into existence in Shengal?
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. The only difference is that the PKK acts as a shield here, as PJAK did at the Iranian border. Fighting is very different, ISIS has been fought but how much is it fighting in the region?
Do you really think he is waging a serious war? I repeat, the PKK’s duty is to shield the Iranian regime in Shengal and its environs, in Syria, on the Iranian border.
The more we divide something, the harder it is to put it together. When we look at the PKK, there are many armed organizations, groups and associations in different regions. What exactly is the purpose of this? As a matter of fact, even though it was founded under different names, it turns out that the organization is a roof formation after a while…
Yes, let me give an example; For example, they founded a group called Revolutionary Youth (Ciwanên Şoreşger) in Rojava Kurdistan. What did he set it up against? There are other Kurdish political groups and they are working against them.
From time to time, they also attack the armored vehicles of the coalition and the USA, which we have witnessed. -He also knows that the USA supports the SDF in Rojava- They train such groups and expose them when necessary. In Turkey (Serhed Kerim used the expression ‘Northern Kurdistan’ here – ed.n.) Kurdistan Freedom Falcons (Teyrê Bazên Azadiya Kurdistan) were founded and they are actually triggering the gains there.
For example; By taking responsibility for the forest fires in the western provinces, they caused more provocation, more reaction. They established Partiya Çareseri and YBŞ in the Kurdistan Region, and also formed an alliance with the Hashd al-Shaabi.
Hashd al-Shaabi himself is an enemy of the Kurds. PJAK’s duty is to prevent the activities of Kurdish parties and groups in Iran. The methods are the same, the names are different. No such system/formation has ever been seen in the history of any country. This situation creates ambiguity among the people, as I have stated.
As you stated at the beginning of your question, the purpose is “no matter how much it is divided, it does not unite.” They also want to further disperse the Kurds, whom they have already dismembered, not to unite their aims… That is, the tactics and method an enemy would think of…
How does Kandil provide its financial resources? How was it at least during your time?
In the last period, some of the oil that comes out of Rojava is flowing to them. They collect from Russia, Europe and other countries. Companies affiliated to them collect money under the name of customs in the regions where they are deployed in the Kurdistan Region. Human trafficking etc. In other words, they are now collecting money with threats. As in the past, people do not voluntarily provide financial support to them anymore.
- Then we can say that it is financially weak compared to the past?
Yes, now it reminds me of Bandit Hemido. However, while Hemido is a bandit in a region and a mountain and takes money from the nation, the PKK gets money by spreading in many mountains and all over the world. Each of them collects money from the maverick nation…
“Duran Kalkan, who has been in the PKK for more than 40 years, avoids speaking a few Kurdish words”
Did you learn Turkish while you were in the PKK?
Yes, as a Kurd who grew up in Russia, I learned Turkish in Qandil for a few years, and let’s see that Duran Kalkan, who has been involved in the PKK’s execution for more than 40 years, could not learn or speak a few Kurdish words or does not want to speak…
What can this person do for the Kurdish society and its people, how can he serve? I’m talking about someone who doesn’t bother to say a few Kurdish words. How can this person get up and talk to me about the brotherhood of peoples?
“There was hope among hundreds of Kurds like me and I continued to take part in the organization”
As you mentioned, after the capture of Apo, PKK members such as Nizamettin Taş and Osman Öcalan were separated. You worked as a commander in the PKK for 20 years. You also described some of the events you witnessed. I am sure there are many critical events that you have witnessed yet… 20 years means a lifetime, why did you not leave the organization after so many experiences and testimonies and waited until 2018?
Because people live by their hopes. Despite all the experiences, people carry hope within them. There was hope in hundreds and thousands of Kurds like me and I continued to take part in the organization. There are many people who still have that hope and cannot leave the PKK, as well as many others like me.
Have I moved away from the feeling of Kurdishness? No never! On the contrary, it increased more. To the best of my ability, I want people to at least know what the PKK is serving under the circumstances. Especially our people… Because I joined the PKK with very pure feelings.
When I joined the PKK, I did not know exactly what its ideology was and what was going on. My aim is to work only for Kurds and Kurdistan. However, the PKK is an ideological organization, a party in any case. Of course, it also had a great impact on our people, otherwise thousands of people like me would not have attended. When we joined, each of us took part in the risk of death. None of us had any foresight that we would return safely. As a matter of fact, I witnessed the martyrdom of many of my friends.
We struggled during my time. I spent 20 years saying, “Kurdistan will be established this year. It will be saved next year, and then we will save this land of Kurdistan. We will save our people from their difficult conditions .” There is no longer any strength to bear. I was either going to be executed there or I was going to get rid of the organization and tell what happened. I wanted to convey that nothing is as it seems from the outside.
Also, after me and people like me join the organization, they somehow get involved in their ideology and then realize that they have been deceived and are in a big game. Because when we were in the organization, we were disconnected from the outside. We could watch the TV for 1-2 hours, and that was the speeches in Kandil and Apo’s discourses. When we watched Turkish TV’s from time to time, we watched it like an enemy and said “it is the enemy” and ignored it. As I said, it was pushed day by day with the hope that me and people like me carried inside…
Do you regret joining the organization?
Yes, I regret that the PKK could not meet the expectations of the Kurdish people, that Kandil used and sacrificed women, men and Kurdish youth and people for their own interests, and that the Kurdish society used the resistance and energy of the Kurdish community to everyone except the rights of the Kurds…
Not only me, but hundreds of thousands of our people were wasted. Millions of Kurds have suffered and continue to suffer from the politics of the PKK. What a pity…
Our hope was to recognize the identity of the Kurds and to ensure the rights of Kurdistan. In other words, I worked for the freedom of our people. When I joined, as I said at the beginning, I did not know the PKK exactly. I still have hopes for the rights of the Kurds to be won. I continue my work even if I leave the organization.
“My only goal is that Kurdish youth and their families are no longer sacrificed to Qandil”
Although we have extended what we have said for a long time, there is much more to talk about and unfortunately I have to end our conversation here. Finally, do you have anything to add?
Yes, my only goal is that Kurdish youth and their families are no longer sacrificed to Qandil. As you said, there are many more things to be told, and if Allah wills, I will write them down and talk about them in my book.
I just want to say that everything that happened needs to be thought of with common sense. Let’s not allow our people to massacre girls and boys in the mountains and then make propaganda out of their blood.
I’m sure that the Turkish and Kurdish people can’t express in their minds, “Why can’t Turkey target Bayık, Karayılan and Kalkan, which makes such a high point shooting with such high military technology?” is the question. This raises a question mark. You look at Qandil before the operation is carried out, and the leaders are shifting to the Iranian border. So it’s all a question mark…
While many families are wasted in our cities by the wrong politics, some of them earn a living. As I said, they have nothing to do with Kurdishness. Even some Turkish people who do not want peace do not think about their people or their country. The Turkish people are also suffering from this war…
In short, a certain segment is using this war to keep themselves alive. There has been a struggle for all these years, and a people of 60-70 million has neither a state nor an identity.
Currently, we only have a region that we know belongs to the Kurds, called the Kurdistan Federal. Despite all its shortcomings, it is also heading towards becoming a state. They don’t even allow it to be installed.
I want to emphasize this again and again. PKK equals Iran. They want to bring the ‘Shiite Crescent’ to life somehow. Look at the Shiite Crescent, it reaches Sulaymaniyah, Hawraman, Kirkuk, Mosul, Shengal, Rojava, Damascus there, and Palestine from Damascus.
However, one way or another, Iran’s turn comes. Let our people become aware of the games played on their own lives and futures. I know they may not want to admit things, but unfortunately that’s the case and much more…
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